Garth Sundem

Welcome to the Medical Affairs Professional Society Podcast Series Elevate, gathering the voices of Medical Affairs thought leaders and stakeholders to explore current trends, define best practices and empower the Medical Affairs function. I’m your host Garth Sundem, Communications Director at MAPS and today we’ll be speaking with Robert Groebel and Danie Du Plessis about “Expert Engagement, Driving the Strategic Impact of Medical Affairs.” Robert is VP of Global Strategy for MONOCL. MONOCL is a MAPS Partner Circle member company, and a cloud-based stakeholder platform enabling professionals in life sciences to confidently identify and engage the right experts across the world. By continuously analyzing a large amount of data across all therapeutic areas and regions, MONOCL provides scientific context and actionable insights. Danie is VP of Medical Affairs at Kyowa Kirin, a senior pharmaceutical executive with 25 years’ experience and MAPS EMEA Region President. Today, Robert and Danie will help us look from the health care provider perspective at how experts prefer to engage with Field Medical teams, both in the context of the pandemic and into the future. Robert, Danie, welcome. Thanks for being here. And Robert, I was hoping you could just set the stage. So, I think our audience knows, you know, a fair amount about their current challenges for Field Medical. But will you just lay out the landscape for us of why now is an important time to be having this discussion.

Robert Groebel

Well, thanks for the question, Garth, I think I think now is the time to be having this discussion when we reflect on all of the innovation that’s happening across the industry and the focus that pharma biotech has on rare disease, genetic diseases, and interventions that are far more complex than we’ve seen in the past. And being able to understand the experts that are most appropriate for scientific discourse are incredibly important. But being able to understand what their needs are and, and their desire to have a relationship with a company is, I think, critical in building long term trusted relationships.

Garth Sundem

Oh, so that’s so interesting that you would start with the complexity of emerging treatments. You know, I thought we would be talking pandemic, pandemic, pandemic this whole time. Danie, what do you think about that? I mean, so we’ve got a couple things going on here. What else would you add to the landscape of Field Medical interactions right now?

Danie du Plessis

Yeah, thanks, Garth. You know, it’s really interesting, the pandemic and the influence it has on on all of us. And at the same time, we sometimes forget that all companies have actually been on a journey of change and improvement the whole time. My view is that, you know, one of the good things maybe of the pandemic is that some things have actually just been expedited, we, we’ve been forced to do things in a different way than what we used to do it. And that’s uncomfortable, right? Because change is uncomfortable, always. So so the the, the way that people interact, has slowly been changing, I believe, and as I’ve said, you know, has been expedited. And therefore, it’s a really good time to reflect on what does this look like now? What could it look like in the future? And, you know, what is the so called regular expression of a new normal? And do we need to actually move away from COVID? And rather think about the future? And what is a better way to do things and what we’ve done in the past? Because that is really part of innovation as well.

Garth Sundem

Oh, that’s interesting. So, Robert, do you see the pandemic maybe as accelerating positive change? Or maybe even just accelerating inevitable change?

Robert Groebel

Well, I’ll certainly take the positive on this. I think the positive change, the positive change that COVID has potentially kind of enacted on the industry is the reflection on what what type of resources do we as an industry need to provide to experts and healthcare providers around the world to make really important decisions and and, you know, we’ll some of the resources that that the industry has at their disposal, move more directly in line with with Medical Affairs? Are there other scientific resources that we can, we can create because they’re of higher value? I think the pandemic Also, you know, just by way of our isolation, has forced to Danie’s point really accelerated the way we think about communication and changing the way we communicate and engage with people. And can we be more efficient? Can we be more aligned to better times or better formats of communication so that the experts in HCPs can can focus more of their time on patient care? I think I think it’s a positive.

Garth Sundem

That’s interesting. And so do you see, you know, both of you, do you see the HCPs – because they’re forced to engage digitally during this time – do you find that just accelerating their comfort with this digital engagement?

Robert Groebel

I think it’s a combination. It depends on a few things, right? So, we all know, the expressions around, you know, digital natives, and all sorts of other things. And then there’s eventually I think, digital asylum seekers like myself, grown up and in a previous environment, but learning as we go along. So, my sense is that there’s a there’s a generation, and this is not only about age, by the way, but there’s a generation of, of HCPs, who’s much more comfortable with virtual interaction, then then maybe some others. And, you know, we had recently we’ve been involved in a five year strategic plan. And somebody was saying, Well, you know, in five years time, many will have retired, and the new generation will be very comfortable. And I suddenly realized that, you know, that probably includes me from a retirement perspective. But But yeah, I do think it’s, it’s variable got to just, you know, build a little bit on this from a geographic perspective. It’s different in different countries as well, interestingly enough, it’s been linked to culture. And what we’re seeing in some of the Southern European countries, I’m sure you know, it’s very much relationship driven. It’s a big gap. People really miss the face to face interaction. Some of the Northern European countries, maybe not so much. But then there’s individual differences. And I think that takes us to an interesting conversation about stakeholder needs, which is, which is not one thing only. It’s a variety of things.

Garth Sundem

That’s interesting. Well, so it seems like the very first part of this conversation, we’ve been looking at the Field Medical experience from the perspective of Field Medical, and one thing I know that MONOCL has that I was really interested to learn more about his information from the perspective of the expert. So you know, I wonder, Robert, if you’d be willing to talk about what you know from MONOCL? What do these experts want? Can we look from the expert perspective for a second? And and can you talk to us about, about what experts want now and into the future?

Robert Groebel

Yeah, I mean, it’s a it’s a, it’s a good question. And and I think it’s something that, you know, everyone across the industry really has to think about, you know, we historically, we have been very focused as an industry that, you know, building out engagements and relationships that are very focused on the needs of the organization trying to drive that relationship, and companies that are more attuned to understanding the needs of the the HCP have the expert, you know, what science are they looking to, to gain from you, as a provider of that science? How are they interested in working with you, you know, in what types of activities and so being able to understand needs and preferences, even down to how someone wants to be communicated to creates a sense of expectation creates a sense of positive expectation, because if you look at, you know, published reports, there is a low level of satisfaction with scientific relationships across the industry. And and that has a downstream effect on perceptions of a product or compound, and even perceptions of, of the company. And so using data and software to understand and memorialize those preferences and needs, allows an organization to become very nimble, and align their activities to the most appropriate expert when the time is right. And and that’s the way that you build a relationship that is mutually beneficial, that achieves the expectations of both parties. And I think you have to start thinking about things that way. Because the other thing that that you know, this pandemic has done for us is probably created a situation where Field Medical teams and even Medical Affairs will have to build relationships with experts in emerging markets that they don’t know And so having this data at their fingertips and really understanding the profile, and the personal data, personal information that you know they have willingly shared, is going to help these scenes be more effective. And and if I could just come back to Danie’s point about, you know, five years from now, I think this is one of the positive accelerants of COVID. Because we didn’t see Medical Affairs, you know, warmly embracing other communication technologies everyone was was trying them and using them to one level or another. And this has really created some nice change management across the industry. And given the Field Medical teams a level of comfort, I believe in the fact that they can do their jobs when necessary, in a remote in a remote type of manner.

Garth Sundem

That’s interesting. You know, I, I’ve always looked, yeah, we all have complex jobs, right. And Medical is a complex job. And I’ve heard various people try to boil it down in various ways. And what you said just now is that, you know, Field Medical is the provider of science. And I like that I mean, that if you’re going to put a headline on what Field Medical does, I mean, is that what you would say is that Field Medical is the provider of science?

Robert Groebel

I think so that’s at the heart of scientific exchange is making sure that that expert decision maker has all of the information they need to to make an informed patient decision. And if I go back to, you know, kind of my initial comment, when we have something that is complex and innovative, you need to make sure that not just the expert has that information, but the care team around them. And so being the provider of that science informs everyone’s decision and opinion on how care might be provided to to a patient in a very challenging way.

Danie du Plessis

So please, thanks, Robert, for providing me this little step right onto my soapbox, right. So absolutely agree, you know, he’s the provider of science, I would probably call it provider of knowledge. And, of course, the intent is that it should have an impact on patient outcomes. But I think it’s an end conversation, right? And so that is only the one way, tell, it’s still a little bit of what does the organization of the company want. And I think the and this is the soapbox. But the bit that is really important, I think, and that as an industry we haven’t quite nailed down yet is the listening part is as important for not only field based medical, anybody from medical or commercial from that perspective, to really have the ability to listen, to understand how we can add value, but to also listen to potentially data gaps or questions about the data or comparatives, or whatever the case may be, and really be able to delve down into to listening, not only what is said, but also what is not said, right? So sometimes, in the coaching world, people talk about listening between the lines. And that is a very interesting skill, which I think is even more important in virtual interaction. And this is one of the reasons why, you know, I really do prefer Video Interaction, because you do get at least some resemblance or resemblance of that face to face interaction to, to look at reaction to read body language, and to really understand what this what the caol or the expert think. Because then often they know, almost as much if not more than some of the field based medical experts with their sake. Right. So how much can you actually tell them that they don’t already know? So what is that relationship? What is that interaction and what could be brought back into the company that is valuable, right, which gets us into the whole actionable insights conversation, as well. And you can only really do that if you if you go in if you listen, and if you know the data well enough that you can have a scientific dialogue, as opposed to I need to go and show my 15 slides or God forbid, slides sometimes. Right so that I have as you can eat a very strong feelings about it.

Robert Groebel

No, I think it’s I think you’re spot on. And I think that that is what we’re talking about is moving away from something that was traditionally somewhat transactional. I am going to bring you this I’m going to show you this But it is about the skill. And if I know what you want from me, I can try to provide that in the most effective way possible. But I couldn’t agree with you more about listening and looking and watching for things that are going to be valuable for your company going to be valuable for the scientific, you know, the activities that are going on. And an insight isn’t just something that you hear it, it could be something that you see or something that you don’t see. And I I’m with you 100%, absolutely 100% critically important for the MSL to not think about themselves as a cloistered deliverer of slides. But as a scientifically strategic member of pharmaceutical biotech organization that is trying to help drive science forward positively.

Garth Sundem

And the conduit of information both ways. So So what would we say a provider of science, but also, I don’t know what the opposite would be an acceptor of science or something like that bringing, bringing the science in as a, in addition to helping the science get out. So So two ways. Well, so here’s something else I wanted to follow up on. Robert, you said, and I’ve heard elsewhere that your digital interactions provide the opportunity for Field Medical to be places where they haven’t been before. You know, there are emerging markets, if you want to call them that, or or just emerging places that we can reach now, because we don’t have to have boots on the ground. And how do you find the right people to engage with in in places that you haven’t been before?

Robert Groebel

Well, I think you have to, it’s a great, it’s a great question. I mean, you can you can think about the physical nature of things and, and where people may have some restricted access, and and using digital as a way to to circumvent that access issue. But I also think that the industry has to look at the caol, or the expert or whatever, whatever term, we’re going to apply to them in a different way, we have traditionally spent a lot of time looking at things relative to volume, volume of behavior, volume of trial or publication. And I don’t know that we always look at impact as a measure of someone that we could be working with. And so if I think about someone who has written one terrific, well received paper that wouldn’t receive kind of the normal measure within a company, you’re missing an opportunity. And so I really think we have to shift our thinking around aligning our activities and our engagements to the right experts. And an expert is someone who knows more about one thing than anyone else, or a group of people that know more about one thing than any anyone else. And and when I come back to the complexities of today’s pipelines, there are going to be experts that are completely non traditional, that still have the opportunity to Danie’s point to generate actionable insights as a result of a new relationship.

Garth Sundem

If you’re talking about quantifying influence, right, and and if you can quantify that influence, maybe you’re looking deeply in addition to broadly.

Robert Groebel

Yeah, I mean, I I have I have willingly cast off the term influence for the most part, we know what the cut, we know what the connotations of influence are. But if I can look deeply into someone’s expertise, so I know more effectively how that person might be valuable to a discussion or to some activity, or would welcome a relationship with me to further their expertise. And that’s really a different way of looking at things. It’s not just about ivory tower, but it’s about the people that have, you know, a particular focus. And if we think about the millennial generation, they don’t behave the same way. They have very specific interests and very specific things that they want to do. And I would, I would argue that that will translate into scientific activity into the future.

Garth Sundem

Okay, and so Danie, how do you formalize this so when when your Field Medical teams go off into the world, with these new skills and this new understanding and and this new desire to be a conduit for information? Do you formalize this or you know, when you’re looking at engagement planning? Do you just send your Field Medical out with goals? How do you formalize this?

Danie du Plessis

Yeah, sir. Really interesting question. God for sure. So, you know, we all familiar with this notion of strategic planning Medical Affairs plans, and you know, you have the external engagement plans and they were Go down to individual level, and the goals and and, and that’s well, good. That’s, that’s fine. But again, traditionally, that’s a one way situation, what do I want to go and share? And I think if we get into this habit of actually having that dialogue around, how can I add value to your life? And then you base your engagement plan on that. And, you know, that’s sort of where I started going right in the beginning. It’s about in the truly individualized plans, right. So it’s very easy to talk about individually engagement plans. But what does it really mean, if it’s individualized? It needs to be based on a conversation around? How can I add value to you as one of my key stakeholders, and build around that and have that flexibility then to understand what are the different tools in the toolbox that I can pull out now to go and add value. And at the meantime, I’ve actually picked up something which I haven’t heard, so I can bring that back into the company, right? That actionable insight. And by the way, my definition of actionable would be something that can either influence a clinical development plan, and or a commercial plan, right? Post authorization. And just one other thing that I would like to add on engagement in general, right, the field face medical, who are knowledgeable, and knows what we’re talking about, and a fantastic opportunity to engage with people that we didn’t even know would be interested, right? For example, webinars, right? There are more and more people actually get on to that if the content, again, is valuable, you reach hundreds of physicians who in the past you were happy if you got 50. And you know, so talking about volume and reach the the modern way or digital way of engaging, give you that opportunity to actually open it up to people who, you know, to use it a commercial term, who in the past have not necessarily been targeted? Yeah, sure. I think that’s incredibly valuable for patients. Because at the end of the day, that’s really what we should be focusing on is the patients.

Garth Sundem

That’s interesting that your targeting goes right past, not right past but right through the HCPs into patients. And I hear you saying listen, listen, listen, you know, we get information out. And most of these comments I’ve heard you say, Danie, are Listen, listen, listen. And you know, I think this brings us back to Robert, you know, and monocle two. So how do you again? So, Robert, how do you get to these new opportunities? You know, is it digital tools? Is it personal networks? How do you how do you reach? You know, these people that Danie’s talking about with a webinar? You’re gonna have 500 people on there? But how do you find these people? Or how do you? How do you get the right people to engage? Robert?

Robert Groebel

Well, I it’s a great question. And it’s I think it’s something that Medical Affairs has to recognize. And it goes beyond the traditional approach that they’ve that that we’ve seen in the past. And are there resources that should be created for these types of people? If we think about oncology, in and of itself, you know, 85% of oncology care is delivered by a community level physician, are we creating opportunities for those community level physicians to engage and listen and learn and understand and share? Because to Danie’s point earlier, you know, those recognized experts probably know more than you do. But when I have something new to bring to the market, I have something that is life changing for patients, should I be talking to the recognized experts about that with the same level of frequency that those those physicians who are providing care are doing and, you know, you create a different type of value, a different type of respect, when you think about the doctors, the experts, the Allied Health people that would benefit most from your data or your engagement, you know, you know, reflecting on on that patient and, you know, there are a whole host of tools and data that you can leverage today to identify people that fit those those types of demographics, but I think it’s the first step is really what is Medical Affairs really charged with doing and again, come back to COVID I think we’ve had the opportunity to really reflect on the way that we’ve done things in the past. And we’ve identified things that we can do in the future that will really a drive value, demonstrate value, but have an impact on the patient. And this is all coming from the medical side of the business.

Garth Sundem

Okay. Well, I think I think we got to leave it at that. But I just wanted to say it’s interesting that in this conversation, I hear some what I would call actionable insights that I hope our audience can take back to their teams. But I also hear a heck of a lot more questions. And I think that’s the mark of a good conversation is that I’m going to go away thinking about the questions that you have brought up as much so as the actionable insights that I think you brought up as well. So thanks, Robert, and Danie for joining us today. So to learn more about how MONOCL can help your Field Medical teams connect with experts around the world to drive impactful outreaches and strategic engagements, visit MONOCL.com. That’s M-O-N-O-C-L.com. And we hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of the Medical Affairs professional society Podcast Series Elevate. MAPS Members, please join us at the community portal to continue the discussion. And don’t forget to subscribe to this channel for weekly podcasts, exploring current trends and best practices for Medical Affairs. Thank you both.

Transcribed by https://otter.ai