Kirk Shepard   00:00

Welcome to this episode of Medical Affairs Professional Society, or as it’s abbreviated MAPS podcast series: Elevate. I’m Dr. Kirk Shepard, Chief Medical Officer and Head of Global Medical Affairs OBG at Eisai. And today I’m speaking with Ghazaleh EA, pharmacist and new industry professional. I met Ghazaleh during a MAPS event. And I’m excited for this opportunity for Ghazaleh to tell her story of entry into Medical Affairs. So, let’s start the beginning. Ghazaleh, you are a practicing pharmacist. At what point in your career did you find your interest in Medical Affairs.

Ghazaleh EA   00:40

So, first of all, I would like to say hi to all of your audience. I’m happy to be here to just share my experiences a little bit and talk about how I chose industry as a area where I would like to practice or where I would like to work. So, I am a graduate of Doctor of Pharmacy program and I recently became a practicing pharmacist in the province of Ontario in Canada. I discovered my interest in pharma while I was still a student completing my PharmD program through various online courses and networking events that I participated in.

Kirk Shepard   01:16

So, tell me a little bit about your journey and what motivated you to go further to explore your interests in Medical Affairs.

Ghazaleh EA   01:24

I found my interest in Medical Affairs, in particularly medical pharmaceutical industry and med tech by networking with current industry professional who were working as either medical science liaison or medical advisors, as well as by taking several online courses, including one that’s actually offered by MAPS called artificial intelligence and Medical Affairs. That course piqued my curiosity and I really wanted to learn more about Medical Affairs. So, what I did after I started to look for internship opportunities outside of school, and I completed an internship with the Canadian Medical affair consulting company, where I had the opportunity to work on two projects. One was a medical affair project, and the other one was a market access one. After that, I was able to secure a rotation with Bayer Pharmaceutical, where I worked as an Oncology Medical Affairs intern. And I engaged with several Medical Affairs projects, as well as collaborated with several cross functional partners like marketing, sales, and regulatory. And that rotation at that Bayer was truly a turning point in my career, I loved every moment of my job there. And it allowed me to see that I have certain potentials in that in this domain. So, I was given multiple projects that allowed me to work with different individuals and learn from them, I was able to take ownership of my work and I was able to be you know, a leader, you know, what I was doing, I was able to connect with inspiring leaders who motivated me to continue pursuing my passion. So, I would say at Bayer, I understood that not only am I interested in healthcare, innovation, and improving patient care on a global scale, but also I had certain skill sets such as you know, presentation, problem solving, critical appraisal of literature, and just working with others on project based type of work that would allow me to be successful in this landscape, should I choose to continue to be in the pharma world. So, to sum up, I would say what led me to pharma was one taking initiative to take online courses and securing internship. And number two, to make the most out of my experience during internship by networking with everyone on my team, all the way up to the head of head of Medical Affairs, and even the CEO of the company, and to learn from them, and to hear their stories and journey. So, I could be inspired as well. And together all of this made me very interested to look for opportunities in pharma after graduation.

Kirk Shepard   03:59

Very nice. And I’m going to pull you back a little bit in time again, how did you find out about these training opportunities, these internships do a lot of pharma companies offer those?

Ghazaleh EA   04:09

And so, I think it was a little bit of just Googling as well. I was interested to see what opportunities are out there. And the particular internship that I did in the consulting firm was actually reaching out to someone who I already knew through school. So, she was a professor who I know has this consulting firm, and I asked her if that could be a possibility. And that’s how that came to be an opportunity. And the internship I did at Bayer was through my PharmD program, we had the option of doing an elective. Some individuals chose to do it in hospitals, some chose to do it in industry, sorry, in insurance companies. I chose industry because I thought that was very unique, and I kind of just put my name in that draw, and I was lucky that I was selected to complete that rotation out there. But aside from that, I think there are other opportunities too, that one can look on LinkedIn on Indeed, sometimes those internships are available as well, and you can find them. So, I hope that answers the question

Kirk Shepard   05:15

It fairly does and it would pull you back again to the first steps because I think those are critical for people looking for a career Medical Affairs, personal contacts. Besides Googling, besides all the research you did, did any people particularly help you a lot were key as far as your steps towards Medical Affairs.

Ghazaleh EA   05:34

I think mentorship is very important. So definitely there were several individuals who walked me through my ideas walked me through my interest as I was drafting those cover letters, let’s say, or as I was preparing for interviews, so definitely, if you have if you can connect with individuals who are experienced in pharma, who are willing to spend some time with you and walk you through your thoughts, that can certainly be helpful. I had a few of those, I guess, mentors along the way. And I would say the other thing is, when I was networking with individuals, while I was at Bayer, or outside of there, I was taking notes of everything they were saying. So, if they said something, or if they did something that was unique, I tried to take note, and I sort of looked at it all at the end and tried to see, you know, does this apply to me? Would I be able to use any of their trajectories or ideas and fine tune it to my experiences and interest and take my career from there? For example, I know some individuals started their career outside of pharma and ended up being in pharma. So that obvious example of that is clinical sites. So, physicians are pharmacist who worked in a particular therapeutic area for many years. And then they found their path to Pharma. Alternatively, some just directly went into pharma after school by being a medical affair, sorry, medical information associate, for example, or safety, or pharmacovigilance. Associate, and they took their pathway to medical affair from there. So, I think the power of networking and you know, is that you can learn from these experiences, and you can see if it applies to you, and if that can be an option for you.

Kirk Shepard   07:20

So Ghazaleh, you hit another important point, I think, talk about a person in training, whether it’s a pharmacist, whether it’s an MD or PhD, and going straight into pharma, or should they go out and get experience for some perhaps practice, I know you’ve been able to do both. You’re practicing pharmacists, you’ve also took a step into Medical Affairs, talk about the pluses and minuses of each of those going directly into pharma after training or during trading, or waiting a little bit as far as practices variance.

Ghazaleh EA   07:49

I think either would work. Personally, I’ve seen both paths. When I talked to different individuals who are in pharma, I would say one of the challenges for someone coming from with coming with a strong clinical background like pharmacy or you know, physicians, one of the toughest challenges is that once you’re invested in pharmaceutical and medical affair, you will be stepping away from your clinical role for the most part. And I think that’s, that’s a challenge that you have to think about it carefully. And I think a lot of people realize that, and because of that, they choose to go into clinical first, some, some choose to go to clinical first, and get that experience before they jump into Pharma. But that’s not for everybody. Some individuals choose not to go to clinical for different reasons. And I think either way, honestly works. Just to give you a little bit of background, I have experience working as a pharmacy student in hospitals, in various therapeutic areas like cardiology, oncology, hematology, critical care medicine. So, for me, you can imagine how deeply I was invested in providing clinical care to patients on those units. And nothing replaces that the kind of impact you can have on patient live on a daily basis in hospital or community is honestly very near and dear to my heart. What I love about industry is I can still have that positive impact on patient care, but instead on a global scale. And that, for me is a very powerful and fascinating concept when I think about it. So, you know, I still continue to hold an active pharmacists license and I managed to pick up shifts and the clinical side. And that perspective allows me to keep that patient centered approach to care when I’m not on the clinical world. So, I think there’s merits to that as well. So, you know, to answer your question, does it matter? No, you can you can do either way. It’s different things work for different individuals. So for me, I’m at this point, I’m focusing on non clinical side at this point, but I am also keeping that clinical perspective because I think there’s value to it.

Kirk Shepard   09:54

Excellent. In fact, God so that’s how I entered the pharmaceutical industry. I practiced the Cleveland Clinic The company I went with Barry Ingelheim allowed me to practice at the Columbus, Ohio State Cancer Center for 10 years, it was a perfect life, you know, you’re treating patients on a one on one basis. At the same time. Also, as you said, you’re able to impact populations. So, I think the point here is that, as you said, you can come at it several ways, directly from training, also, perhaps after clinical practice for a while, and some companies do encourage people to continue their practice on a limited basis to keep their head in the game as far as patient to patient interaction. Well, let me now go perhaps to now the rougher side, because you’ve had a great course so far, and you’re very positive and energetic, which helps out with your pursuit. But what have been the roughest challenges for you, as far as making the step? An answer could be there have been done.

Ghazaleh EA   10:53

There’s definitely challenges in everything you do in life. And I think there is definitely merits in talking about the challenges because oftentimes on LinkedIn or on social media, we see the successes, we only see that positive and outcome. And it’s always nice to talk about what didn’t perhaps work immediately, because that way, it can we can inspire others that things don’t work out on the first try. So, for example, for me, I know that there are several opportunities after graduation. So, you can apply to industry residency, for instance, or you can apply to placements after graduation on I did apply to those and I had some interviews that went well, and some interviews that were a learning experiences as well. And but in the end, I had to still look for other opportunities I interviewed in many companies. And I learned from many different individuals. And I think that was challenging, it was challenging to just keep applying. And sometimes you don’t hear back, sometimes you have to write multiple cover letters for the same company sometimes. And it’s just it’s a very iterative process, I would say. And I, you learn a lot from yourself as you’re improving. So, when I look at my first cover letter compared to one of the light, later ones, I see a lot of improvement. And it’s a process and you have to go through that process. If you’re trying to emerge into the pharma world or in Medical Affairs, you have to keep trying, you have to apply multiple times you have to write many, many cover letters, you have to interview many, many times. And each time you learn something. And one, one thing I want to encourage your audience who are trying to, you know, break into pharma, I would say is, when you interview in places, take notes, take notes of things, you say take notes of things you hear, because in your next interviews, there might be better answers you can give to some questions, or maybe you can elaborate more. And the only way for you to do that is to take notes, so you can reflect and you can improve. So that’s been challenging, it’s been challenging to interview many, many times. And the other thing I would say the other challenge, or maybe the other thing I would encourage your audience, which I did as well is to keep an open mind. Because you might think that, you know, I have a very strong clinical background, I only want to break into Medical Affairs, and I only want to become, let’s say, a medical advisor or a medical science liaison. But there are other avenues as well, you can always end up in what in your dream position in different ways. And I would say keeping an open mind is really a good idea. For instance, when I was up there, I did a project in the regulatory side. And I wasn’t expecting it because I was a Medical Affairs intern. But when that opportunity presented itself, I was welcomed into it. And I took it and I learned something because I had the opportunity to collaborate on a regulatory document that I learned something from Health Canada, for example, policies, I learned something about how things are phrased differently in some regulatory documentations. So, I would say being an open mind in your experiences, but also in your career, you can always land your dream job in different ways. And I would say that’s maybe a bit challenging for some individuals if they think they’re set in what they want to achieve. And yeah, so I would say that’s the other thing I would encourage others to think about.

Kirk Shepard   14:08

I think that’s a very important point. Because so many people go in thinking they know what Medical Affairs is like, and they haven’t designed where they want a specific job. And you’re right, keep an open mind because that lateralization in a number of roles in Medical Affairs, even as the first place you start isn’t where you want to end up is so valuable as far as your experience. So, I’m glad you have that attitude. Let’s talk also about where people are coming from degrees and training. In your experience. What types of training and degrees can go into pharma which have the best chances talked a little bit about that?

Ghazaleh EA   14:46

For sure, I can definitely share…

Kirk Shepard   14:48

Where you’re a PhD or PharmD.

Ghazaleh EA   14:51

Yeah, for sure I can share what I’ve observed and what I’ve experienced. I think it depends. I think it depends what job you’re applying to and In some medical affair roles, for example, medical science liaison use, you might see that the norm is, for example PharmD, MD or PhD. But that really, I would say, you have to look at the qualification subsection of the job posting, because it might differ based on the company might differ based on the role. Alternatively, if you don’t have those doctorate level degrees, you can also enter pharma through sales or through other sectors, which require maybe a bachelor’s or a master’s degree. And then you can find your way to medical affair to those particular roles that you’re thinking of with experience and showing your value. So, what degree do you require? It really depends. But I think there is a way for everyone to enter pharma, if they really want to, they just have to apply for the right positions, so that, you know, they’re making their way to their, their career in the right way, you know, might, if the job posting asks for a farm D or MD or PhD and, and one only has a bachelor’s, maybe trying to find a different position first might be a better idea, as opposed to just focusing on getting a position that you don’t qualify for. So, I think there is options for everybody, you just have to keep looking at the job posting and see what the requirements are.

Kirk Shepard   16:20

I think you’ve made a very important point, if no matter what degree you have, whether it’s PharmD, PhD, MD, nurse, or even a bachelor’s degree we have some of our best people have never gotten an advanced degree beyond bachelor’s degree who are incredibly valuable to our company. So, as you said, it’s important to look at the culture of the company, some will say, oh, we only want to MDS in this position. Others are much more open and higher majority of farm DS or PhD. So, it’s important to do your homework there to know what setting you’re going into. Absolutely. So, I want to go back to a critical point, you’ve hit it several times. But the whole process, when you’re considering the move from somebody right now is in clinical practice, whether pharmacists or doctor whatever, and now they’re considering a move to pharma, one of the most important things for them to do, I think if we can get that message across, where people get trained to open that door, that would be critical for them to think about the steps that I need to do to get to Pharma.

Ghazaleh EA   17:17

So, I can share some possibilities that I explored. And some that I know of, but I didn’t necessarily go into, for example, one is internships, I would say, internships can go beyond your country, they can be abroad, they can be locally. But think outside of the box, for example, I did a medical information role in cardiology abroad in the Middle East. And that was a fantastic experience. And that was early in my PharmD education. And I would say, you know, I just had to find that through finding individuals who were willing to take someone on an internship, so you have to really be courageous maybe, and just email them or message them and see if they’re open to that. Most of the time, you will hear no, maybe, but that’s okay. Because there’s one person who might say yes, and that can change your that can change your career that can really give you the experience. The second thing I would say is placements or rotations. For example, as I said earlier, our PharmD program allows us to choose rotations in industry, if your particular degree program offers that take advantage of it and try to secure one. This, the third thing would be post grad options. So, residency fellowship call, if that’s an option for you, if you know if you can apply for those that might, you know, open other doors for you. I know many of my colleagues and friends who did residency in Medical Affairs and market access, those were in Canada, those were one year experiences post grad, whether they secured it through a university or on their own. But that really gave them the experience, they need to be able to leverage and move to medical affair roles later on. And the fourth one, I would say programs like university and college specialized programs, and master’s programs or other industry related courses that you can take, there are several of those that are offered in Canada right now in many universities. So that’s something that individuals can look into. But I would caution, I would just put a point of caution here. Because if you already have advanced degrees, you really have to think carefully about further education. I would say don’t do it just for the sake of doing it. Do it with research and with information because you don’t want to over educate yourself. You don’t want to spend two years unnecessarily in a program that may not give you the skill set you need or give you the value you require. So really talk to individuals who’ve done it, see if they think it was worth it, see what they got out of it. And also consider whether you can get the same experience in a different way. But if you think it’s The right path, I would say definitely some universities have great programs that you can look into. The fifth one I would say is networking. Breaking into the pharma world through networking is one of the best ways to learn about opportunities. Every individual comes, as I said, with different backgrounds, different trajectories, and you can learn so much from them, not just how they got to where they got to, but also, what responsibilities do they have? How do they succeed in their job day to day, and there’s so much you can learn, I personally was inspired by so many leaders who just talk to me about how they manage their team just told me how they talk to their teammates, how to put it a motivate them, and there’s so much you can learn from those networking opportunities. And also, don’t be hesitant to ask them questions that are that are, you know, burning questions for you, you know, if you’re hiring someone, what do you look for? It’s okay to ask those questions, they might be able to give you some insight. I think sometimes people like myself were trying who were trying to break into a pharma, or who are new grads and are hesitant to ask those burning questions, but I think it’s okay, if someone is giving you their time, to you know, have a one on one with you, they might also be open to give you some pointers as to what they look for when they’re hiring. And that way you can learn something again there. I would say the sixth option is mentorship, you can take advantage of mentorship opportunities, whether securing it one on one through someone you know, or through MAPS, for example, medical care, professional society has a mentorship program as well. If you joined MAPS you are I would be able to use that mentorship program as well. And you would be paired with someone who’s experienced and who can help you out along your journey. And lastly, I would say joining professional organizations, and there’s so many of them. One of them is obviously MAPS, where by joining it, you can learn so much you there’s so many courses, there are so many podcasts, there are, as I said networking opportunities and mentorship opportunities available. And so that’s definitely an avenue you can consider by joining these organizations and see what they offer and what you can get away from it. I would say those are some things that work and may work. And it’s definitely worth exploring them. What doesn’t work, I would say and the only thing that doesn’t work is giving up. I honestly think if joining pharma, if going into medical affair is your passion and your desire, you just have to keep trying. And sometimes you have to try for a little bit, it doesn’t come immediately. But if that’s what you would like to do, I think there’s definitely a way in, maybe residency doesn’t work for you. That’s okay, you can try again, maybe a job doesn’t work for you, you can try again. And I think if you find yourself, you’re not motivated enough to apply again, maybe ask yourself if this is really what you want to do. Because if it is, then you won’t give up. And you really would just continue applying and continue improving. And finally being able to learn your ideal or dream per year.

Kirk Shepard   23:03

Ghazaleh, very wise and very complete advice. So thanks a lot for that. And maybe I could give some encouragement for those who are later in their career, particularly the vast majority of people call me physicians who have been in practice for years who have little experience with clinical trials, or anything that the pharma world would touch. I’ve been encouraged on the number of people that have been placed into Pharma. And I think the main advice you gave is not giving up, especially if you have somebody like a mentor or sponsor can give you kind of wisdom of how to approach the companies, these people who are being placed for people now want to change in their career. But thank you, I think those points were very clearly made by and so the last thing I want to do is maybe directed back towards us. How can we already a Medical Affairs help and support those exploring a new career in Medical Affairs?

Ghazaleh EA   23:59

I would say by providing guidance and sharing your journey and telling us people who are you know, as people were trying to break in what you learned from your successes, but as I said, also your setbacks. Because inevitably, all of us face setbacks to in our careers. We didn’t all just land our ideal position every single time, you know, in our career. So, telling us also what was your setbacks and how you overcame them is also I think, very motivating. And sometimes we have to ask you, and sometimes you can volunteer it, I would say it depends. I think everyone is different in how they choose to approach this topic. But I think maybe just giving some insight as to, you know, if it didn’t work for you, what did you do next? And I’ve heard many of those stories as well and those were really helpful for me. I recently talked to someone who is He is very obviously successful, industry professional. And they were telling me how, when they tried to break into industry, they had challenges because of their therapeutic area. And they were explaining to me how they still leveraged their expertise to still land a position in the pharma in a different sector. And I think that just tells me, doesn’t matter what degree you have, if you have, you know, a master’s, PhD farm D, or multiple different degrees of that kind, you can still find yourself sometimes struggling to land a particular position. And so, it doesn’t matter where you are, you will always find yourself trying to break barriers, and you overcome those challenges. And it’s always nice to hear those stories from experienced industry professionals like yourself. So, I personally reached out to many individuals. And I asked them to share their journey. And I thought it was really helpful to hear those. And also, like, if you have experienced, or if you have worked in teams, where you’ve seen certain types of certain types of, I guess, teamwork that you didn’t like, I think it’s also nice to hear that, because we all know what it takes, you know, some of it most of us know what it takes to be a great team player. But when you’re not a great team player, then when someone in the team is not a great team player, how do you know, as a leader deal with that, because as a team member will also have to deal with that. So, I think it’s also nice to hear those kinds of stories, so we can learn how to navigate challenging scenarios at work as well. So, I think those are also some helpful things to hear when, yeah, that I usually ask for networking with someone, and I feel comfortable to ask.

Kirk Shepard   26:51

Great, Ghazaleh, outstanding. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation and thank you for your insightful words, and best of luck to you as you move forward in your career. If any of our listeners are interested in exploring a Medical Affairs career, please consider the E-Learning course linked from this podcast at the MAPS website. And that’s medicalaffairs.org. Again, Medical Affairs all lowercase no space.org and mass members. Let’s continue the conversation at MAPS Connect. We hope you’ve enjoyed this episode of the Medical Affairs Professional Society podcast series: “Elevate”. Thank you very much. Thank you.