00;00;00;22

Garth Sundem

Welcome to this episode of the Medical Affairs Professional Society podcast series: “Elevate”. I’m your host, Garth Sundem, and today we’re talking about dols misinformation and what Medical Affairs teams can do to ensure that the first is helping to counter the second. Joining us are Jenni Gray, Global Health Scientific Communications at Novartis Medical Affairs, Drew Owen, Chief Scientific Officer at Publicis Health UK, and Emma Robertson, Associate Director of Social Media at Langland. So this is a big problem. How big of a problem is this, Emma? How big of a problem is misinformation really?

00;00;44;13

Emma Robertson

It’s a big problem. I think something that sums it up pretty well is that the data it’s showing us two things really, is that people are using social to make health decisions, but that credibility is also not automatically granted to health care professionals anymore. So even the Canadian Medical Association has recently reported that there’s been an increase to a third of Canadians who have avoided effective treatment because of incorrect information they’ve received. And that also aligns with what are really reporting on the ground where they’re saying 80% of them are saying they’ve seen patients that have physical or mental harm linked to this information. This is that’s the vast majority of cases where it’s happening day to day. But what’s even more striking, I think, to me, and a lot of the work that we’ve been doing, what we’re seeing is that people know that they’re contradicting the doctor. So 70% of Gen Z and about half of millennials say that at some point they followed medical advice from social media, even when it goes against what their doctor has told them. So the harm and the risk here is real. And I think it’s only continuing to grow as we see kind of the gap widened with with AI driven content going out on social media.

00;01;53;16

Garth Sundem

I use it for sure. You know why does my shoulder hurt? And ChatGPT is going to tell me what to do about it. But it sounds like Emma, we have, an example of this, a very interesting case that this group has worked on. Jenny, do you want to take us through your project in sub-Saharan Africa with deals and misinformation?

00;02;11;10

Jenni Gray

Yeah, sure. I’m happy to. So similar to what Emma was saying about the Canadian Medical Association, we actually did a behavioral science study looking at the behaviors that affect people’s health, seeking treatment when it comes to malaria and specifically malaria in small children. And we found three main behaviors that, affected that. But underlying every single one was either misinformation, misconception or mistrust. And those three things are topics that can be tackled through digital platforms. And especially when you think about sub-Saharan Africa, it’s a massive geography, millions of people. Malaria is something that affects everybody in the endemic region. So through digital channels seems like the perfect opportunity. But we don’t understand the landscape. So we need to understand that better so that we can work out what is the best way to actually give people the information that they need to make the best decisions about the health for themselves and for their families?

00;03;10;13

Garth Sundem

Oh that’s interesting. Okay, so misinformation, misinterpretation and mis trust mistrust. Drew, do you want to dig in and tell us about those things?

00;03;22;19

Drew Owen

But I was going to build on that a little bit because I think as part of the project as well, sort of in sub-Saharan Africa, it’s a massive error, as you said, Jenny, but there’s so much variation within even small parts of sub-Saharan Africa. Okay. I think when we think about traditional sort of medical activities, we tend to book a lot of things together. But I think rural to urban, there’s differences country by country. And I think what we sort of understood is this different things needing different conversations in different parts of sub-Saharan Africa, and the means to tackle them are different. The type of social media use is different. The influences might be different in one country, honestly. It might be a celebrity, a football star who’s going to be the most influential to city, something in another country. It might be an NGO or a religious group. So I think those three things sort of underpin a lot of what’s causing some of the damage, but then the means to tackle them, it’s so varied in unpicking how to tackle them, I think, is what really stood out for me when we were doing that project.

00;04;23;07

Garth Sundem

That’s interesting. So the traditional channels, right. You’re looking way beneath those to personalize your approach to to to misinformation, misinterpretation and mistrust. You know, based on really not only the dolls but the channels in which those dolls are opinion, our opinion leaders. So then what’s the role of Medical Affairs here? So you know, the the, the challenges that HCP face is the role of Medical Affairs just to support those HCP or to support the dolls who what the HCP are listening to or what what what is Medical Affairs doing maybe in this project and and even more broadly. Jenny, do you want to get us started?

00;05;11;27

Jenni Gray

Yeah, I can get us started. I would say it’s a bit of a philosophical question because we can answer. It’s like, what should we do? And there’s what could we do? What can we do within the the compliance frameworks that we all work in? I did a quick poll of colleagues about what do they want to do when they hear misinformation or they see it online. And it’s a very different answer if they hear it in person, for example, at a Congress, they can do something. They can stand up and challenge. But when it’s online, it’s totally different. And I actually think something we need within Medical Affairs is some clear guidance on how it’s appropriate to engage. Because I believe as members of the healthcare community, we have an obligation. We know our products better than anyone else. We need to make sure that information about our products that’s out there is accurate. But with you’ve got AI feeding off Wikipedia, that may not be accurate. Do we have the resources to check that every day? Probably not. So I think it’s a question that we can’t answer yet. But the my opinion is we can’t do nothing.

00;06;13;11

Garth Sundem

Well oh go ahead Jill.

00;06;15;11

Drew Owen

I was going to build on I’ve been thinking about this this course coming up. I think we need to go to areas we’re not used to going to. I think one of the key things is about misinformation. And people absorbing it is it’s it’s quick, it’s rapid. They can absorb it while watching the TV versus, you know, engaging with the doctor takes time to make an appointment. Do you want to go to the appointment and then to listen to something you might want to listen to? And people exist in echo chambers as well. Like once you start down a route, you probably going to hear more voices that reinforce something in a way. So I think as well as sort of, Medicare’s doing all sort of providing the kind of information on the channels we do. But like Jenny said, going into areas where we might not traditionally be going, working with different types of people, we might not have worked before. So that we’re actually meeting this information, where it’s perpetuating. Obviously with the guidance that we need for Jenny mentioned.

00;07;12;08

Emma Robertson

Also, I think in ways that people want to receive information nowadays because that’s changed so quickly. When you look at, you know, what health care companies or organizations are putting out on social media versus what you’re competing against. It’s not just other companies within your industry. It’s other people’s favorite influencers or their favorite TV show clips. So that’s where do you really play this valuable role with with misinformation, but also general education? I think in the future, one of the factors is that we know that creator content or influencer content outperforms brand content in all parts of the funnel, but our industry hasn’t quite caught up to how we partner with those people who who know how to create really engaging, social content, but also are experts in scientific storytelling. And that’s really crucial, I think, for where our industry needs to go. And we’re seeing more clients. I think picking that up and wanting to to be able to tackle it, I think a little bit more head on and figure out what Jenny was saying, what what can we do and what should we be doing? And I think that should what we should be doing is looking at who are the trusted duals that can help us tell that right story, and in a way that’s going to resonate with people.

00;08;23;22

Garth Sundem

And Jenny, you mentioned earlier that, HCP is they don’t know how to engage online to counter misinformation. Is the role of Medical Affairs to, you know, a engage with dolls directly, you know, find out who these dolls are or find out how they communicate. Find out how we can communicate with them. Find as Emma points out, these trusted dolls that we can, you know, trust to communicate. But to engage with deals directly, should we also be teaching CP’s how to engage with dolls?

00;08;59;06

Jenni Gray

That’s a very difficult question to answer, because I think it probably depends on the HCP. I think it’s it’s more that we need to enable. It’s about enabling them to be able to counter misinformation where issue with the information that we have. I don’t think we should be, honestly, they could probably teach us something about engaging online, especially when you look at how some of the dolls are. They’re incredible, the way they engage their communities and the conversations that we’ve seen from our case study, the conversations that people are having about their health care, it’s really meaningful, and having a lot of impact. And I don’t think we need to tell them how to do that. One thing I think we do need to do is be cognizant of historically, how we would have engaged with Kegels, as we called them back in the day, and make sure we learn from that, because really digital, the need is there stakeholders in the same way. And we need to learn about what works. When you engage people, you need to be transparent about it. You need to be credible, and you need to find that sweet spot where engaging with each other brings something to both parties. And it’s not all about what’s good for us. It’s about what’s best for the wider population.

00;10;13;15

Drew Owen

Okay. And I think that’s going to build on that. And I think that’s such an important point about we we caught up, we caught off and lump Coal India all together. But for me, I think we need to think about them completely separately. The k well relationship with pharma is quite well established. It’s quite well, trodden about how to engage and what you might engage with. Whereas the DRL relationship is brand new and a lot of dolls might not work with them before, how they want to interact with their public is going to be very different to how cables interact at conferences. For example. So I think understanding that mutual value piece is going to be really important for for long term partnerships between dealers and foreign.

00;10;52;17

Emma Robertson

Yeah, I think that’s that ties back really nicely to another project we’re working on, where that’s a question that I see coming up a lot is are they going to want to work with pharma. Do these duos you know, want to engage with us? And it’s a completely fair question because not everyone will. But in this project that we’re working on specifically, it’s about communicating new innovation in a in a therapy area that’s that’s quite niche, but has a really engaged community. And we’re working with partnering actually a doll and a coal together to communicate. This, this information. And they we had the briefing with them and the feedback initially was this is so important. And we’re so glad to be part of this because it’s exactly what we should be doing for this community. And that was just it was really special because I think everyone was a little bit nervous going into it, because doing something for the first time can be uncomfortable, but getting that kind of payoff, I think really demonstrates that when you get it right and you find the right people to to communicate the right message, it’s it’s really where the future of that comms is going.

00;11;53;03

Garth Sundem

That’s a really interesting collaboration. And, you know, I was thinking about Medical Affairs, engagements flowing through Dols or Medical Affairs engagement, you know, flowing through Cols or Https. But now you’re talking about Medical Affairs being sort of this connector of alcohol with the doll. And so, yes, maybe Medical Affairs is there making sure that everyone understands the therapeutic area and the therapeutic options and the data correctly. But but really you’re you’re helping coalesce, you know, you’re providing them with, with a mouthpiece in a way, in a way to be the opinion leader in this, in this very new landscape. So, okay, let’s broaden the conversation a little bit and talk about geographies. So what is it about South Saharan Africa that that is so different than Canada? MoU said I mean, what was it, 70? I forget your percentage, but people in Canada are making decisions based on, their online information. Is this what you’re finding in sub-Saharan Africa as well? And how would your, engagement with dollars differ across these geographies? And I see Jenny, maybe. Do you want to start us out with that?

00;13;14;25

Jenni Gray

Yeah. So in many ways, maybe one could say it’s not different because they’re human beings and you want to engage with them in the same way. However, one of the major differences is understanding the local context. And that’s language cultural. Any role of faith based organizations, that’s something we found is particularly strong in sub-Saharan Africa. The way is it a more rural, setting or a more urban environment that makes a different what is the access to high speed internet? There’s a statistics that the the access to high speed internet across Africa has more than doubled. It’s grown at more than double the rate of the rest of the world over the last 20 years. So I think there’s a perception that there is an access to online. But that’s wrong. I would say some of the things surprised me. I expected language to be more influential than it was, actually. It’s predominantly English language, but I see that as an opportunity to provide content in more languages than English, because if you don’t speak or read English, then the information is not available to you.

00;14;24;27

Drew Owen

I think going back to what you initially said, Jenny’s understanding which of those three misses is underpinning each region. So, for example, in Canada, it might be misinformation, but it might be more mistrust in sub-Saharan Africa. And I think understanding the context of what it is you’re trying to tackle also sort of impacts the ultimate output.

00;14;46;13

Garth Sundem

Okay. So I hear this project journey really starts with understanding this landscape. And I really like your your idea to look in this landscape and see if misinformation, misinterpretation or mistrust, you know, might be the prime driver of, interesting decision making. Is that what you were going to say to us?

00;15;09;22

Drew Owen

Well, I was going to say, because going into this project, I feel like we tend to go in with a lot of assumptions. I think you can go in with zero assumptions, and just listen to the local landscape. People who understand the local nuances. I wouldn’t even assume languages. I think we, you know, we don’t quite quickly that even within, I’ll say Nigeria, there’s different sort of colloquialisms around Nigeria that are important to pick up on, to have an impact in different parts of Nigeria. So you can’t go in with a one size fits all even in that respect. So I think having zero assumptions and really trying to listen and learn has to be step one.

00;15;48;14

Jenni Gray

Yeah. And I think anyone who’s worked in product design or done any UX design will really know the importance of that discovery phase, where you have to dispel every single assumption you have and you speak to the people who know you speak to either the end user or the local teams, and you ask them. And even if what they say doesn’t match what you believe, you have to accept it. And that’s a challenge of our own, preconceived ideas and our own assumptions. But that’s quite a beautiful experience as well. So if you asked me what we were going to do with this project, I actually couldn’t tell you. I don’t know what the solution is yet. We understand the landscape now and the next part is going to be working out. What problem is the number one problem we need to solve with this dollars?

00;16;33;02

Garth Sundem

Oh boy. So understand the landscape and believe the landscape.

00;16;36;28

Jenni Gray

Believe what people tell you. You know they don’t. They’ve got no reason to lie.

00;16;40;28

Garth Sundem

Yeah. Emma also Drew and Jenny, those sound like excellent takeaways in our timing here. Emma, is there anything that you would say about misinformation and dollars in this space?

00;16;53;24

Emma Robertson

I think if it’s it’s something you’re curious about, lean in and try something that’s uncomfortable. It’s not people’s first instinct, I think, in this industry. But now there’s enough people who have been trying and testing, learning from one another that. But I think it’s there’s a real opportunity to get ahead of the wave and make sure that you’re building also longer term relationships with these tools. But Leeton take a chance and I think you’ll be really surprised by the impact that you see.

00;17;25;14

Garth Sundem

All right. Let’s leave it there for today. So thank you, Jenny, Drew and Emma for joining us. Maps members, don’t forget to subscribe and we hope you enjoyed this episode of the Medical Affairs Professional society podcast series: “Elevate”.